Fate/Free Will

[FreedomEndured]

Lets have it out. Which do you believe in?

And its really cheesy to quote matrix, But I like to believe i am in control of my own life.

[Barry Clark]

I believe that I have actual control over my decisions while being mindful that experiences may have as much sway on judgement.

[psykopain]

its both............ur free will, that u choose, can deside ur fate.

what ever happens in ur life is ur choice. even when something beyond ur control happens, ur choices deside what happens to u.

[Shujin]

I believe there is already a thread on this topic. I also believe that we've already beaten it into the ground.

[meshrocks]

My head's hurting from reading psykopain's post. It's "YOUR" DAMNIT!!! arrrgh.

[psykopain]

My head's hurting from reading psykopain's post. It's "YOUR" DAMNIT!!! arrrgh.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

ur rite........ :? ........ :lol:

[Barry Clark]

I have given this thought. I believe that 'will' is the ability to adhere to personally held principles regardless of the obstacles or reasons why. Given that, I also think that 'will' implies freedom of thought in its own right. Granted, I believe that the way we think is not created from nothing but from those before and with us. But for simplicity in conversation's sake, let us consider it 'free' and 'independent' 'thought'. Since adherence to a set of principles concerns the choice to go one way or another, the term 'free will' is redundant. Just 'will' would suffice.

[Parasite]

the term 'free will' is redundant.

The term 'free will' is not redundant. In fact, you gave us a very good example of a man's will being allegedly undermined involuntarily. Regarding Karl Marx and his apparent hypocrisy you stated, "It was fairly impossible to, within the system of the time, to exist without some submission to capitalism." So following your rationale, Karl Marx's will was not 'free' because of restraints placed upon him without his volition - or was Karl Marx simply a hypocrite as I posit? Nonetheless, I believe in free will with a peppering of the Calvinist concept of election - this I would have a much more difficult time enumerating than the glaring error of calling 'free will' redundant.

[Barry Clark]

We all make choices. No matter what happens to us, we make choices. We make those choices based on the strength of our 'will' concerning a subject. One can have strong, weak, or even seemingly non-existant 'will'. But it is still 'free'. The statement of mine concerning Karl Marx is no indicator that I, myself, argue against this. It mentioned where the level of his 'will' faltered. It was still 'free'. Perhaps my choice of the term 'nearly impossible' is what confused things. I'll buy that. It was entirely possible, just more difficult than giving in to the system. It all depends on the price you are willing to pay for your convictions.

[Barry Clark]

This post was deleted. Don't know by who, but it was. It truly existed for a brief moment in time.So you agree he was a hypocrite?I can't say for sure. I didn't know for certain what his personal convictions were. However, in the 'Manifesto', he made no mention of not working within the system, only to force change through it. He mentioned using the strength of capitalism against itself. One could easily argue, that is what he was doing.

[Parasite]

I deleted it as you edited your post after I had posted this question - your clarification made my question obsolete. Nonetheless...

...I still disagree. Tell me an African person had 'free will' when bound in shackles on a slave ship heading to Charleston, South Carolina. No matter how much he 'willed' not to be a slave, he was going to be sold into slavery. 'Free will' is not redundant because there are times our self-determination and/or actions are stymied by some external force. 'Will' simply implies that you have the gift of resolution. 'Free will' implies that this resolution is not constrained by an uncontrollable variable.

[Barry Clark]

I deleted it as you edited your post after I had posted this question - your clarification made my question obsolete. Nonetheless...

...I still disagree. Tell me an African person had 'free will' when bound in shackles on a slave ship heading to Charleston, South Carolina. No matter how much he 'willed' not to be a slave, he was going to be sold into slavery. 'Free will' is not redundant because there are times our self-determination and/or actions are stymied by some external force. 'Will' simply implies that you have the gift of resolution. 'Free will' implies that this resolution is not constrained by an uncontrollable variable.I do think that. If it was that it was more in their interest to survive than to fight to death. That is the 'will' to escape faltered and 'will' to survive succeeded.

Added:
In my eyes, there is no such thing as being in a position where there are not uncontrollable variables. Truly. it is against the will to not be a slave that the slaves were brought. It wasn't against a 'free' will but 'will' alone. The only way a 'free' will, in my mind, can exist would be in the control of an all powerful, all knowing being.

[Barry Clark]

I deleted it as you edited your post after I had posted this question - your clarification made my question obsolete. Nonetheless...Oh.

[seputallica]

well, for those of you that believe in christianity, its not really a matter of free will since god has already planned everything out and he knows the out come of every event. everything is already planned out according to him. all we can do is hop on for a ride. fate.

if you dont believe in god (like myself) then it can be a tricky question. if you dont believe in god then i guess it would be called free will within the laws of nature.

[psykopain]

us who do believe still have free will.....we can still choose the path we want to take.

we just take what we know is the right path........but we have the choice.

[Tsorovan]

Does that mean that you "who do believe" are omniscient or maybe premonitors? It sounds like that's what you're saying.

[seputallica]

well, for those of you that believe in christianity, its not really a matter of free will since god has already planned everything out and he knows the out come of every event. everything is already planned out according to him. all we can do is hop on for a ride. fate.

if you dont believe in god (like myself) then it can be a tricky question. if you dont believe in god then i guess it would be called free will within the laws of nature.

well i guess its aruable whether youre choosing or going along by whatever force is driving you. god for example. maybe you make the coices you make without really having a choice in it. if god has everything predetermined then is it really a choice?

[psykopain]

kinda........we r watch gaurds in a sence.
here to worn those who choose to here.
but it takes time and effort for us to see ourselves.

[psykopain]

well i guess its aruable whether youre choosing or going along by whatever force is driving you. god for example. maybe you make the coices you make without really having a choice in it. if god has everything predetermined then is it really a choice?
well God does choose us.......so ur kinda right....but we still have the choice to reject him if we want to.

[seputallica]

yeah, and he already knows who doesnt accept him. he knows the future because he is all-knowing. he cant be wrong.

[Barry Clark]

yeah, and he already knows who doesnt accept him. he knows the future because he is all-knowing. he cant be wrong.So we are not free to choose? We are predestined to suffer?

[NinjaHavoc]

I have quote for you, it's not exact, but I think you will get the gist of it. It doesn't deal directly with the current topic, but it's related.

"If god doesn't exist, then we have nothing to lose by believing in him -- but if he indeed does exist, then we have everything to lose by not believing"

-Blaise Pascal

[Barry Clark]

I have quote for you, it's not exact, but I think you will get the gist of it. It doesn't deal directly with the current topic, but it's related.

"If god doesn't exist, then we have nothing to lose by believing in him -- but if he indeed does exist, then we have everything to lose by not believing"

-Blaise PascalI am not sure if this was in response to me or not. If it is, let me clarify my point. It was always to my understanding that this 'God' had given man a choice. Freedom to make decisions and grow. Yet, "he" already knew what you were going to be like. That sounds far more like destiny. Which is it? That is what I was getting at.

To directly respond to your post for what ever it might be worth. If a god doesn't exist then I do have something to lose by believing in "him". Time and energy. Time and energy that I could have been using somewhere else. If "he" does indeed exist, I have lived a pretty moral life by Judeo-Christian ethic save one about worshipping. With that, I understand that this "God" has an imperfection that is very human. Jealousy. If you do not put faith in "him" then you are condemned. That is not anything or anyone I would want to worship. I would just as soon suffer than to bend my knee in fear. There is a saying here that I am sure most to all have heard. It is that a brave person dies only once, a coward dies a thousand deaths. If there is awareness beyond this life, then the same would apply there. Reliving the fact that I was a following out of fear would be a far worse punishment than if I had made a decision based on conviction and spend time chllin' with the dark one. He prolly has better CD's anyway. :D

If I am wrong an any points then please speak up. Although I have read the entirety of the english versions of the Bible, I am not a follower and therefore do not pay much attention to it.

[NinjaHavoc]

Well, it wasn't directed at you. But, when I think of believe in God, I don't think of devoting your whole life, and the way you live to it. I myself believe in God, but it hasn't made that huge of an impact on my life. I guess I couldn't really be considered a 'christian' but I do believe in God.

[Parasite]

I believe there are two misconceptions/errors being made as people contemplate free-will, predestination and foreknowledge. First, a major distinction exists between omniscience and predestination. That is, just because God knows what words I am going to type next does not mean that He is essentially causing my fingers to press down on t-h-e-s-e- k-e-y-s. Yes, God knows all; however, this does not mean He has written a script for all human events and we are simply following His lines. (Additionally, Scripture does not support this idea.)

Secondly, most people here seem to bind God to a temporal existence. In other words...it is now 0930 hours and God knows what I am going to do at 1127 hours ergo God must be directing the show. What people need to realize is that even at 0930 hours God is already existing at 1127 as well - God is not bound by time. God does not look at the spectrum of time and see the past, present and future - as we try. God is "in" the past, present and future simultaneously. Thusly, His 'foreknowledge' is simply His existence throughout time concurrently.

In closing, the idea God has my every decision already mapped out and decided upon is a dangerous tenet. Why? Well, the carnal Christian would then have a basis to 'believe' and not change. Essentially, a 'Christian' could say, "I believe in God, but I am not going to stop being an alcoholic because God has predestined me to be one." The entire idea of predestination as determined by God is erroneous and not supported by the Bible. Man has free will even as God is omniscient.

[NinjaHavoc]

Never thought about it like, nor have I heard anyone say it like that. I'm gonna talk to my church guy about that. See what he thinks.

[Tsorovan]

The word you'd want to use is omnipresent. Omnipresent In the space-time continuum. Fancy that.

[Parasite]

Don't get confused with Calvinist election, Pyro. The elect are chosen by God, essentially predestined to be 'elect'. Make sure you and your 'church guy' are on the same page about predestination. What kind of church do you go to btw?

[NinjaHavoc]

My mom just started dragging me to it one day, it's a lutheran church. One of those 'new age' churches.

[Parasite]

The word you'd want to use is omnipresent. Omnipresent In the space-time continuum. Fancy that.

Actually, omnipresence has to do with ubiquity, not an exclusion from the temporal.

[Tsorovan]

You mean to say that omnipresence/ubiquity has not a time restriction? The definition is everywhere at the same time yes. But not everywhere at the same time at all points in time simultaneously, no? Hence my inclusion of the 4th dimension.

[seputallica]

yeah, and he already knows who doesnt accept him. he knows the future because he is all-knowing. he cant be wrong.So we are not free to choose? We are predestined to suffer?

unfortunately yes. that;s the way i see it and understand it.

[seputallica]

I have quote for you, it's not exact, but I think you will get the gist of it. It doesn't deal directly with the current topic, but it's related.

"If god doesn't exist, then we have nothing to lose by believing in him -- but if he indeed does exist, then we have everything to lose by not believing"

-Blaise Pascal

for me personnaly, i would have alot to lose if i believed in god and turned out to be a fake. we are all sinners. some sin is very enjoyable and we commit these sins knowing that they are wrong according to the bible. now if i had faith in god, then i would have to give it my best effort to keep from sinning and spreading the word of god. that's a pretty big commitment.so yes we do have alot to lose.

now if he does turn out to be real then we have a serious problem. i never really mention this part to many people but oh well. here goes.

my biggest fear in life is when i die i discover that god exists. i dont believe in god but i know that i do not want to spend eternity in a place like hell. i know that i would love to go to heaven. so there lies my problem. i just cant accept something so grand as god simply on blind faith, which is how the bible tells you to take it.

i do not hate god and i believe that religon has benifited mankind more than it has hurt it. churches provide humanitarian aid on a massive level. i can appreciate that. i would only hope that if god were real, that he would understand my predicament. i would hope that he understands that he has given alot for us to chew on and people would find it difficult to accept.

[seputallica]

I believe there are two misconceptions/errors being made as people contemplate free-will, predestination and foreknowledge. First, a major distinction exists between omniscience and predestination. That is, just because God knows what words I am going to type next does not mean that He is essentially causing my fingers to press down on t-h-e-s-e- k-e-y-s. Yes, God knows all; however, this does not mean He has written a script for all human events and we are simply following His lines. (Additionally, Scripture does not support this idea.)

Secondly, most people here seem to bind God to a temporal existence. In other words...it is now 0930 hours and God knows what I am going to do at 1127 hours ergo God must be directing the show. What people need to realize is that even at 0930 hours God is already existing at 1127 as well - God is not bound by time. God does not look at the spectrum of time and see the past, present and future - as we try. God is "in" the past, present and future simultaneously. Thusly, His 'foreknowledge' is simply His existence throughout time concurrently.

In closing, the idea God has my every decision already mapped out and decided upon is a dangerous tenet. Why? Well, the carnal Christian would then have a basis to 'believe' and not change. Essentially, a 'Christian' could say, "I believe in God, but I am not going to stop being an alcoholic because God has predestined me to be one." The entire idea of predestination as determined by God is erroneous and not supported by the Bible. Man has free will even as God is omniscient.

its very debatable from my point of view. if by believing that god has everything mapped out, you jump in front of a car and get runn over, then it was god's will. if the car swervs and misses you then it was god's doing. at the same time you probably shouldn't tempt the lord. god created us and our feelings/emotions. but i guess if you look at it from the way that im explaining it, then there really isnt much point to living if your actions are not your own.

[Parasite]

its very debatable from my point of view. if by believing that god has everything mapped out, you jump in front of a car and get runn over, then it was god's will. if the car swervs and misses you then it was god's doing. at the same time you probably shouldn't tempt the lord. god created us and our feelings/emotions. but i guess if you look at it from the way that im explaining it, then there really isnt much point to living if your actions are not your own.

We are beginning to spiral into theology which may bore quite a few people here, Seputallica, so this I direct specifically at you. Man does not tempt the Lord nor does the Lord tempt man. Firstly, the idea that man could tempt God is patently wrong. The idea that man could sway the will of God is, quite frankly, blasphemous. (I am not chiding you, I am simply clarifying some erroneous thinking). Man can remove himself from the protection of God through his actions, but man can not alter God's mind. Secondly, the Lord does not tempt man - Scripture is very clear on this topic. In fact, God allows to what degree Satan might tempt a believer. Read the story of Satan tempting Jesus in the desert: because Jesus is the incarnate fleshly representation of God (that is all God and all man, simultaneously), then one who believes God 'tempts' would have to then say that God must have tempted Himself in the desert - obviously this is counterintuitive. Satan was allowed to tempt Jesus in the desert (although the Bible is clear that Jesus was not actually 'tempted' - more of a unilateral tact God allowed Satan to use in order to reveal His truth through Christ's response, that is to say we, believers, were able to get a glimpse of how it is we should respond to temptation...rebuking, turning and not even entertaining such thoughts/actions). God allows the temptation of man though Satan.

[seputallica]

youre obviously educated on religon but i wasnt implying that man could alter or sway gods mind. its obvious that thats impossible.

[Shujin]

About predestination, here's one concept that might sit better with some.

I have a lot of friends that go to a Presbyterian church, and their model states that everyone is destined from birth to go to heaven. However, there are a lot of things that you can do along the way to change that. Just throwing that out there.

About the devil: if he does exist, then I don't think he's a bad guy. If he was evil, then I would think that he would gather up all those evil souls he has down there and lead an attack on heaven, but he (presumably) hasn't yet. Instead he (again presumably) sits down there and tortures them. Doesn't sound evil to me.

[Parasite]

I have a lot of friends that go to a Presbyterian church, and their model states that everyone is destined from birth to go to heaven. However, there are a lot of things that you can do along the way to change that. Just throwing that out there.

The Bible clearly refutes this idea that everyone is destined from birth to go to heaven - the idea of election is a key component to proper Christian theology. No offense to your Presbyterian friends, but their model is wrong and contrary to Scripture.

About the devil: if he does exist, then I don't think he's a bad guy. If he was evil, then I would think that he would gather up all those evil souls he has down there and lead an attack on heaven, but he (presumably) hasn't yet. Instead he (again presumably) sits down there and tortures them. Doesn't sound evil to me.

Torture isn't evil?

[NinjaHavoc]

I have quote for you, it's not exact, but I think you will get the gist of it. It doesn't deal directly with the current topic, but it's related.

"If god doesn't exist, then we have nothing to lose by believing in him -- but if he indeed does exist, then we have everything to lose by not believing"

-Blaise Pascal

for me personnaly, i would have alot to lose if i believed in god and turned out to be a fake. we are all sinners. some sin is very enjoyable and we commit these sins knowing that they are wrong according to the bible. now if i had faith in god, then i would have to give it my best effort to keep from sinning and spreading the word of god. that's a pretty big commitment.so yes we do have alot to lose.

That's not true, like I said before, (might not have been in this thread.) just because you believe in God, doesn't mean you have to completely devote your life to him, and being un-sinful. He gave us our own will, he knows that we will sin, no matter how hard we try not to.

And Cyanide, I don't believe that the souls in hell are 'evil' they just 'sinned' too much, and never found god in their life, thus they were sent to hell. Yes, he does torture those people, but that doesn't necessarily make him 'good'. I was also taught in church, that there is always a battle going on between good and evil around us, they are constantly fighting for us. I was taught that Satan's greatest strength was that no one knows he exists. Just because I said that does not necessarilly mean I believbe it, infact the notion sounds kind of childish to me. I lost myself, i'll wait for a response.

[seputallica]

you dont have to but you do have to make an honest attempt to live your life sin free. the ten commandments were not made so that you only know that youre sinning. they were made so that you can abid by them.

[NinjaHavoc]

I don't believe that. I don't anyways. I know plenty of other people that don't as well.

[seputallica]

dont believe what?

[Parasite]

That's not true, like I said before, (might not have been in this thread.) just because you believe in God, doesn't mean you have to completely devote your life to him, and being un-sinful.

Where do you come away with this Pyro, mere opinion? I can tell you this is profoundly wrong! "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye Cannot serve God and mammon." (Matthew 6:24). A man who genuinely believes in God will devote his entire life to Him. This does not mean you will be sin-free; rather, you will live a life of repentance in the face of a sinful nature.

[Tsorovan]

Which makes christian politicians hypocrites. Yay!

[Sammich]

YAY!

[mchncl]

\o/
i'm thankful that christians are pretty rare in sweden... at least in the circles that i am in touch with. i also find it good that they are easy to spot by their retarded cloathing and that look which comes from years of being victimized.

[seputallica]

\o/
i'm thankful that christians are pretty rare in sweden... at least in the circles that i am in touch with. i also find it good that they are easy to spot by their retarded cloathing and that look which comes from years of being victimized.

wow.

[Tsorovan]

They sure are easy to spot with their skenheliga gaze. Especially frimicklare.

[mchncl]

They sure are easy to spot with their skenheliga gaze. Especially frimicklare.
aye! haha
how to spot a x-tian from quite a long way away

[Parasite]

Hehehe...you two kind of sound like those guys in white sheets who wrote up manuals on how to spot a 'nigra'. Or the Nazis who distributed propaganda informing the German people on how to spot a Jew (big noses, funny hats and generally affluent). The mentality of both mchncl and Tsorovan is the same, but hey...racism, bigotry and stereotype all find warm homes with the mentally deficient! I knew mchncl was low class, but I honestly thought you were above this, Tsorovan. :::Shrug::: Silly me.

[mchncl]

hahaha... you didn't catch the monty python reference... yet another sign of a x-tian!
and yes, i was dead serious!

:þ

[Tsorovan]

Aaaaaand someone doesn't know what he's talking about. How quaint.

[Shujin]

The Bible clearly refutes this idea that everyone is destined from birth to go to heaven - the idea of election is a key component to proper Christian theology. No offense to your Presbyterian friends, but their model is wrong and contrary to Scripture.


Well, see, the thing is, Scripture clearly refutes a LOT of things, but that doesn't stop them from happening. I don't see why this is any less valid. Also, are you saying that some people are destined to go to hell? That doesn't seem fair.


Torture isn't evil?

Not if they deserve it.

[psykopain]

My mom just started dragging me to it one day, it's a lutheran church. One of those 'new age' churches.
just make sure that church is teaching the bible and not the word of some preacher just trying to get money from his flock.......thats a good way to know if its real or not........ :wink:

[psykopain]

About the devil: if he does exist, then I don't think he's a bad guy. If he was evil, then I would think that he would gather up all those evil souls he has down there and lead an attack on heaven, but he (presumably) hasn't yet. Instead he (again presumably) sits down there and tortures them. Doesn't sound evil to me.
this is a little deep but;
satan already tried to take over in Heaven, and soon try to take over hear on earth possing as Christ. he will bring peace to earth and the world will beleive it.
and satan was one of God's trusted angels.

as of right now there is no hell, as in fire/brimstone.......that comes at final judgement.

[Tsorovan]

So... where does the Easter Bunny fit into the whole picture? I mean, people celebrate the resurrection of Christ thing by making the Easter Bunny come carrying eggs.

[psykopain]

\o/
i'm thankful that christians are pretty rare in sweden... at least in the circles that i am in touch with. i also find it good that they are easy to spot by their retarded cloathing and that look which comes from years of being victimized.
u wouldnt be able to tell i was one by just looking at me and the way im dressed....ha-ha.

[psykopain]

So... where does the Easter Bunny fit into the whole picture? I mean, people celebrate the resurrection of Christ thing by making the Easter Bunny come carrying eggs.
the easter bunny was slipped in to the real meaning of passover.

it comes from eshtar........a pagan firtility god.

[mchncl]

\o/
i'm thankful that christians are pretty rare in sweden... at least in the circles that i am in touch with. i also find it good that they are easy to spot by their retarded cloathing and that look which comes from years of being victimized.
u wouldnt be able to tell i was one by just looking at me and the way im dressed....ha-ha.
i can tell by your posts. :)

[NinjaHavoc]

That's not true, like I said before, (might not have been in this thread.) just because you believe in God, doesn't mean you have to completely devote your life to him, and being un-sinful.

Where do you come away with this Pyro, mere opinion? I can tell you this is profoundly wrong! "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye Cannot serve God and mammon." (Matthew 6:24). A man who genuinely believes in God will devote his entire life to Him. This does not mean you will be sin-free; rather, you will live a life of repentance in the face of a sinful nature.

If i'm supposed to devote my life to him, then where is my free will?

[timdog]

So... where does the Easter Bunny fit into the whole picture? I mean, people celebrate the resurrection of Christ thing by making the Easter Bunny come carrying eggs.

Pagan tradition buried by Christianity.

http://www.origin-of-easter.com/
Contemporary traditions such as the Easter Bunny and the Easter egg can also be traced back to the practices established by Semiramis. Because of their prolific nature, rabbits have long been associated with fertility and its goddess, Ishtar.

I've also heard some speak of the actual word Easter being derived from "Ishtar". Some Pronounced it Aester... or something close.

[Tsorovan]

Holy. Fucking. Shit. Does everyone here take everything literally? Are you all incapable of getting sarcasm/irony?

Sarchasm is the mental divide that separates the person employing sarcasm and the nitwit that doesn't get it. But you've fallen down into it.

[timdog]

Jesus man.
I know it was sarcasm.. I just assumed that some people wouldn't know this and decided to share. I'm not trying to "school" you.

[Tsorovan]

You weren't the only one.

[timdog]

I wasn't one period.

[Parasite]

If i'm supposed to devote my life to him, then where is my free will?

Egads man!

[NinjaHavoc]

Haha, I don't really know what i'm talking about, I just post in here so maybe someone will take me seriously.

[Shujin]

this is a little deep but;
satan already tried to take over in Heaven, and soon try to take over hear on earth possing as Christ. he will bring peace to earth and the world will beleive it.
and satan was one of God's trusted angels.

as of right now there is no hell, as in fire/brimstone.......that comes at final judgement.

So, if there is currently no hell, but we've alreay got all these dead bad guys, where are they? Bear in mind that if you say purgatory, you'll have some splainin' to do.

[NinjaHavoc]

Purgatory!

[Parasite]

So, if there is currently no hell, but we've alreay got all these dead bad guys, where are they? Bear in mind that if you say purgatory, you'll have some splainin' to do.

Cyanide, I am not quite sure why psykopain believes hell does not currently exist. The Bible is very clear that unbelievers pass from life directly into hell. Man who goes unredeemed into the grave actually dies two deaths - the first sends their soul into hell and the second death comes after the Final Judgement. Following the Final Judgement, all the souls contained in hell will then be cast into the lake of fire, the second death. This part of death is what people are more familiar with when discussing hell, that is the preverbial description of fire and brimstone. The idea of purgatory has come from semantic debates concerning the first death and second death of non-believers, but all must be clear that the first death causes a soul to descend into hell (a.k.a. purgatory by some).

A major distinction exists between people who believe in a 'purgatory' in that some would have you believe that some souls may exist in purgatory for eternity (if you weren't THAT bad). This concept is clearly refuted by Scripture with the revelation of a second death following the Final Judgement. Revelation 20:13-15 gives us a very good glimpse into this truth:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to their works; 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire this is the second death; 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire;

Please do not view me as a 'fire and brimstone' preacher; although it is a dark reality of Christ's rejection, I tend to focus on the hope and joy a believer may experience in lieu of focusing on the hell that awaits those who choose His rejection. Nonetheless, I am sure we have a number of Art Bell fans in this forum (I am one) and he actually did a great show on the reality of hell and potentially its discovery by some men in Siberia. Dr. Azzacove provided these tapes and an interesting summation of their content (obviously I am skeptical of most everything that appears on Art Bell, but this story was somewhat interesting):

"As a communist I don’t believe in heaven or the Bible but as a scientist I now believe in hell," said Dr. Azzacove. "Needless to say we were shocked to make such a discovery. But we know what we saw and we know what we heard. And we are absolutely convinced that we drilled through the gates of hell!" Dr. Azzacove continued, ". . .the drill suddenly began to rotate wildly, indicating that we had reached a large empty pocket or cavern. Temperature sensors showed a dramatic increase in heat to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.We lowered a microphone, designed to detect the sounds of plate movements down the shaft. But instead of plate movements we heard a human voice screaming in pain! At first we thought the sound was coming from our own equipment. But when we made adjustments our worst suspicions were confirmed. The screams weren’t those of a single human, they were the screams of millions of humans!" Click here to listen to Art Bell presenting Dr. Azzacove's tape. (http://www.av1611.org/sound/misc/dighell.ram)

[psykopain]

ok i should clarafy..........hell is curently in heaven;

the bible says hell as in fire/brimstone......as in the lake of fire will be after the book of life is openned..........all souls, once u die, currently go to heaven.......but if ur not a believer ur not in paradise, u can see paradise but u cant be part of it........to be absent from ur body, is to be present with the Lord, all souls.......its biblical.

[psykopain]

Man who goes unredeemed into the grave actually dies two deaths - the first sends their soul into hell and the second death comes after the Final Judgement. Following the Final Judgement, all the souls contained in hell will then be cast into the lake of fire, the second death. This part of death is what people are more familiar with when discussing hell, that is the preverbial description of fire and brimstone. The idea of purgatory has come from semantic debates concerning the first death and second death of non-believers, but all must be clear that the first death causes a soul to descend into hell (a.k.a. purgatory by some).

Parasite, not saying ur wrong......just want to expand what ur saying, go deeper.
no one goes to the grave, only ur flesh........the soul goes before God at death.

the first death is flesh......resurection..........the second is ur soul........lake of fire.......erased from exsitance.

[oZben]

You shouldn't discuss movies in here.

Little Nicky is pretty cool though! lol @ Hitler getting reamed.
Just imagine that out of the hundreds of religions, your interpretation is one of the wrong ones ..and that's you getting the treatment!! hehe

[FreedomEndured]

This shouldve been a polled topic.... Fuck.

[oZben]

There there

[bobsbag]

So are they saying that hell is somewhere inside the earth?

[Sammich]

hell is in my basement

[arora]

whats hell?

[OrganicAnagram]

i dunno, but its in her basement

[psykopain]

hell is in my basement
u must have a BIG air conditioner........ :? ........ :lol:

[Shujin]

"Dirge! It looks like hell down there! Clean it up now!"

[Sammich]

i dont have a basement...i lied

[Ekstasis]

she have a apartment, if that not is true I kill her.

[OrganicAnagram]

......i knew that

[NinjaHavoc]

LIAR!!!

[arora]

hell is hotter than my heater.and thats pretty hot.

[psykopain]

its hotter then hot........its HOTTER!

[Tsorovan]

Nonetheless, I am sure we have a number of Art Bell fans in this forum (I am one) and he actually did a great show on the reality of hell and potentially its discovery by some men in Siberia. Dr. Azzacove provided these tapes and an interesting summation of their content (obviously I am skeptical of most everything that appears on Art Bell, but this story was somewhat interesting)
[...]
The screams weren’t those of a single human, they were the screams of millions of humans!" Click here to listen to Art Bell presenting Dr. Azzacove's tape. (http://www.av1611.org/sound/misc/dighell.ram)You know what? That sounds a lot like György Ligeti's Requiem.

[Shujin]

I hope there is a hell. There are tons of people that I know would be there, and I would be glad.

[DapperDanMan]

Yeah, you all better watch out for Hell. You know, right after you pass Chris Cringle's house at the North Pole and pay a visit to the Tooth Fairy to tap dat ass. Just don't stick around, I don't think the Easter Bunny will appreciate you hanging around his crib.

[Shujin]

I'll knock the Easter Bunny's shit in if he tries anything.

[NinjaHavoc]

Haha.

[Shujin]

Have some Mentos.

[NinjaHavoc]

Are they poisoned?

[Shujin]

If they are, I'm not aware of it.

I seriously doubt that Jesus would poison your Mentos.

[NinjaHavoc]

Oh well, my breath is already perfect. If I had a mentos it would upset the balance of my perfect breath.

[Shujin]

I seriously doubt that as well.

[NinjaHavoc]

Damn it...

[fisk]

Shut up with all the thinking and go have sex with a good lookin' chick.

[Barry Clark]

Shut up with all the thinking and go have sex with a good lookin' chick.Sounds fair to me.

[Shujin]

What if I'm thinking about having sex with a good lookin' chick?

[FreedomEndured]

Then utilize your free will and DO IT! (literally)

[Shujin]

Haha.

[Stare Blind]

Sex sex sex wake up and start smelling gentiles........


growing another fuck up generation

[fisk]

Then utilize your free will and DO IT! (literally)

In most countries that is called rape. But hey! Who am I to judge?

[Barry Clark]

Then utilize your free will and DO IT! (literally)Free Will is a farce. All will is impeded upon.

[Chaosfear]

And its really cheesy to quote matrix, But I like to believe i am in control of my own life.

True, but they borrowed most of their stuff from books and philosophers anyway. Then edited and simplified it, nothing wrong with that. I doubt most people what to sit and read or watch in-depth philosophies for hours on end.


I use to believe in choice. But everything doesn't begin with choice. For instance, our lives. Did we choose to be born?

I believe now more in cause and effect rather than choice and the choices we are going to make have already been made by us even though we cant see them. Take a person who likes apples and hates oranges for example, for whatever cause/reason. Now you present this person with an apple and an orange. You know what they're going to choose even though they haven't made the choice yet. So did they really have a choice?

Now maybe the outcome would have been different if that person were told you were experimenting on them before they made their "choice" and they knew that you knew they liked apples. Therefore they may have chosen the orange just to prove you wrong. But the person didn't know this so it didn't happen. So maybe a way to change something that is "predetermined" is to know the future (which no one does, another subject). So this means maybe not everything is really predetermined/things can be changed and we start getting into duality. We don't have a choice but everything is not really predetermined either because the only constant in the universe, cause and effect, creates variables which can change any "set" course creating another "set" course.

This could be dangerous though because if people are convinced that someone or something knows the future and enough people believed it they could then play with fate (i.e. get enough people to believe in armageddon and it will happen. And logically the reverse would be true too). Just remember that nobody knows more than you or anyone else when it comes to how existence came to be and what happens when we die, regardless of how many books they've read that have been written by the hands of men or what cloths they wear.

[Shujin]

and we start getting into duality.

No, actually we're just getting into stupid bullshit pesudo-science. Honest mistake, though.

[Chaosfear]

Very intelligent response. I expected a stupid response like that (' i dont like what you say. what you say is stupid blah blah'), especially from those who believe in god for that last paragraph. :lol:

[Shujin]

Oh, so it is in any way intelligent to believe that the universe is ruled absolutely by some mysterious forces? "You don't really have a choice, you just think you do." Uh huh. Keep trying. You know, sometimes, you can take things at face value. For instance, the fact that you are an idiot. This is plain to me. There is no cosmic significance. Quit trying to be intelligent and be intelligent.

Oh, and I like how you attempt to pass this off as just a sort of cognitive dissonance caused by religious beliefs. Sadly, it is to no avail. I hold no religious affiliations. I prefer not to ascribe Certainty to the Unknowable, unlike people of your caliber.

[Chaosfear]

Now that's better. Did I say people who hold a religious affiliation? I wasn't being narrow to a specific religion. Nearly all religions believe in a god and all think they're right and everyone else wrong, kind of like you? And you don't have to be affiliated with a religion to believe in god. Even some people who don't believe in god think there's going to be some sort of armageddon, which I don't believe but I could be wrong. You can take things at face value if you want, o wise one. :roll: Maybe there is some cosmic significance maybe there isn't. You say you prefer not to ascribe certainty to the unknowable yet you seem pretty certain about that. I'll believe what I want for now just as you do.

unlike people of your caliber.

Wow. Look at that high horse. You are so much better than me. Hope you feel better now. :lol:

so it is in any way intelligent to believe that the universe is ruled absolutely by some mysterious forces

Did I say that, or you? I was wondering why you didn't write something remotely interesting about how we do have a choice, if you disagree with my current opinion that we don't, instead of simply saying what I wrote was bullshit and arguing over nothing.

[Parasite]

I use to believe in choice. But everything doesn't begin with choice. For instance, our lives. Did we choose to be born?
Is this supposed to be profound or are you simply stating the strikingly obvious? We can't choose the rate of peristalsis either, but this does not nullify the phenomenon of choice. Bach could have chosen for his 8th Invention to be in G major, but instead he wrote it in F major - he had a choice. Many people choose not to listen to Meshuggah. In fact, choice is the main underpinning behind my disagreement with censorship: people have a choice to not listen to radio programs, watch X rated movies or read pornographic magazines. If choice did not exist then you would have to censor.

I believe now more in cause and effect rather than choice and the choices we are going to make have already been made by us even though we cant see them.
Huh? Cause and effect does not displace choice. Cause and effect is a result of choice.

Take a person who likes apples and hates oranges for example, for whatever cause/reason. Now you present this person with an apple and an orange. You know what they're going to choose even though they haven't made the choice yet. So did they really have a choice?
This is quite possibly some of the most dull thinking I have come across on this board. A person likes apples and hates oranges...you present them with a choice of the apple or orange, knowing they will pick the apple because they hate oranges, therefore there is no choice. lol Ridiculous. Why not present the person with two different types of oranges - say a Tangerine and a Satsuma. Now which one are they going to choose? How about if you present the guy with an orange and a fresh, crisp apple and the guy is starving to death? Voila...he eats the orange and the apple.

Your scenario is like presenting a guy with a bowl of Crème Brulee and a bowl of dog shit and proclaiming, "Eureka!", no choice exists because I knew he would choose the Crème Brulee!

...the only constant in the universe, cause and effect,...
Huh? The universe is filled with an infinite number of constants other than cause and effect.

I think I am going to choose not to read any more of your posts in this particular section of the forum.

[Shujin]

The other day, I was hungry, and decided to eat breakfast. We had two different types of Cheerios. The strawberry kind, which is my favorite, and honey nut. However, I chose honey nut just because I wanted a change, even though I really like strawberry more when you get down to it. How does this fit into your Master Theory of Everything?

[Chaosfear]

I chose honey nut just because I wanted a change, even though I really like strawberry more when you get down to it.

Well you said it yourself. You choose the honey nut, why? What was the cause? You wanted a change, you were tired of the strawberry. Yes you still had the choice/free will but do you understand why? It's easier to see why people make the choices they've made looking back.

I use to believe in choice. But everything doesn't begin with choice. For instance, our lives. Did we choose to be born?
Is this supposed to be profound or are you simply stating the strikingly obvious? We can't choose the rate of peristalsis either, but this does not nullify the phenomenon of choice. Bach could have chosen for his 8th Invention to be in G major, but instead he wrote it in F major - he had a choice. Many people choose not to listen to Meshuggah. In fact, choice is the main underpinning behind my disagreement with censorship: people have a choice to not listen to radio programs, watch X rated movies or read pornographic magazines. If choice did not exist then you would have to censor.

I agree. Not everything is absolute nor on a "set" course or predetermined. I don't believe in choice 100% anymore, like I use to believe, but I don't really believe in fate 100% either. Even though I don't really believe in the bible I think that we do have free will to a degree and some things are on a "set" course to a degree. Except I don't think a "god" has everything already planned. I also believe that these "set" courses can be changed, so they're not really "set."

Lets say armageddon happened yesterday. Looking back ask yourself why it happened. Also do you believe that it could have been prevented or changed if people made different decisions?

[Shujin]

I think you need to regroup and examine your thesis a bit more.

[MeshFan]

Chaosfear, people dont like the thought of not being in total control of everything that happens in their lives lol. I kinda agree with you. People do have control but not total control. Im not sure if this is the best example for what Im trying to say... A tornado hits your house. Did you choose that to happen? No. Not everything is controlled but some things are just out of our hands and we cant choose or control everything in our lives, whether we like it or not. :|

Now I choose to leave this thread. :alien:

[Shujin]

Thank you Cap'n Obvious.

[Tsorovan]

What is this inane logorrhea?

[MuD]

Free Will is a farce. All will is impeded upon.

However, Free Will is a notion that we gladly accept, at least to some degree, when we start wanting people to take responsibility for their own actions.

[Apathy]

So, if there is currently no hell, but we've alreay got all these dead bad guys, where are they? Bear in mind that if you say purgatory, you'll have some splainin' to do.

Cyanide, I am not quite sure why psykopain believes hell does not currently exist. The Bible is very clear that unbelievers pass from life directly into hell. Man who goes unredeemed into the grave actually dies two deaths - the first sends their soul into hell and the second death comes after the Final Judgement. Following the Final Judgement, all the souls contained in hell will then be cast into the lake of fire, the second death. This part of death is what people are more familiar with when discussing hell, that is the preverbial description of fire and brimstone. The idea of purgatory has come from semantic debates concerning the first death and second death of non-believers, but all must be clear that the first death causes a soul to descend into hell (a.k.a. purgatory by some).

A major distinction exists between people who believe in a 'purgatory' in that some would have you believe that some souls may exist in purgatory for eternity (if you weren't THAT bad). This concept is clearly refuted by Scripture with the revelation of a second death following the Final Judgement. Revelation 20:13-15 gives us a very good glimpse into this truth:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to their works; 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire this is the second death; 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire;

Please do not view me as a 'fire and brimstone' preacher; although it is a dark reality of Christ's rejection, I tend to focus on the hope and joy a believer may experience in lieu of focusing on the hell that awaits those who choose His rejection. Nonetheless, I am sure we have a number of Art Bell fans in this forum (I am one) and he actually did a great show on the reality of hell and potentially its discovery by some men in Siberia. Dr. Azzacove provided these tapes and an interesting summation of their content (obviously I am skeptical of most everything that appears on Art Bell, but this story was somewhat interesting):

"As a communist I don’t believe in heaven or the Bible but as a scientist I now believe in hell," said Dr. Azzacove. "Needless to say we were shocked to make such a discovery. But we know what we saw and we know what we heard. And we are absolutely convinced that we drilled through the gates of hell!" Dr. Azzacove continued, ". . .the drill suddenly began to rotate wildly, indicating that we had reached a large empty pocket or cavern. Temperature sensors showed a dramatic increase in heat to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.We lowered a microphone, designed to detect the sounds of plate movements down the shaft. But instead of plate movements we heard a human voice screaming in pain! At first we thought the sound was coming from our own equipment. But when we made adjustments our worst suspicions were confirmed. The screams weren’t those of a single human, they were the screams of millions of humans!" Click here to listen to Art Bell presenting Dr. Azzacove's tape. (http://www.av1611.org/sound/misc/dighell.ram)

Somewhat interesting, however false: http://www.worlddiff.com/sciences_proofofhell7.html

[Barry Clark]

Free Will is a farce. All will is impeded upon.

However, Free Will is a notion that we gladly accept, at least to some degree, when we start wanting people to take responsibility for their own actions.I know it is accepted, but, none the less, a farce. We do indeed set rules that, regardless of conditioning, must be adhered to. There are those who are conditioned to do as they please without a thought to consequence, and there are those who are conditioned in a similar manner but are also conditioned by the consequences. There is societal hope for the latter.

[Tsorovan]

Somewhat interesting, however false: http://www.worlddiff.com/sciences_proofofhell7.html
No shit? I could've told you that had you but asked.

[Apathy]

Well then whhhyyyyd he bother bringing it up.

[Shujin]

I can't believe that story is still floating around.

[MuD]

Free Will is a farce. All will is impeded upon.

However, Free Will is a notion that we gladly accept, at least to some degree, when we start wanting people to take responsibility for their own actions.I know it is accepted, but, none the less, a farce. We do indeed set rules that, regardless of conditioning, must be adhered to. There are those who are conditioned to do as they please without a thought to consequence, and there are those who are conditioned in a similar manner but are also conditioned by the consequences. There is societal hope for the latter.

My point is simply this: What then? What have you said? Do we then stop making people responsible for their actions? Probably not. Saying "free will is a farce" makes the concept non-operational. You can't really make people responsible for their actions without being able to determine that "They chose to do it". So, we adhere to this. Whether it is a "farce" or not, isn't really of consequence.

Oh, and if you can't make something accept consequences for it's actions, how are you supposed to condition it?

[Barry Clark]

Simply stating that all will is impeded upon does not mean that individuals can't be held responsible for actions they produce. It is the body that has not been conditioned to work witin the larger society that is punished, not the mind. You must understand, prisons and mental-health medications are not for the inmate and patient respectively. They are so that the rest of society can deal with them. That being the part of society that manages to operate *"normally" to varying degrees within certain limits.

*"Normal" is determined by immediate and ever increasingly larger groups.

[MuD]

So, no murderers murder at will? Isn't murder a willful act? So, then there is no such thing as murder? or murderers? A notion of "free will", while it could never be fully attained, is essential part of moral agency in any society.

[Barry Clark]

At "will" and at "Free Will" are two different things. Truly, murder is, more often than not, a willful act. A free and unimpeded will need not be necessary for this act to be committed nor punishment to be meted out. "Free Will" is not a moral necessity. There are those who believe they are there but for those before, along with, and after. That nothing can claimed full ownership to.

[MuD]

Whether it is unimpeded or not isn't really of consequence. We have some sense of free will as functional in the very least. For example, I can fully choose at a given moment to go to work or not. What follows from what you said isn't tenable as a whole.

Same with "Nothing can be claimed full ownership to". The only response it can really merit is "So?".

[Barry Clark]

Whether it is unimpeded or not isn't really of consequence. We have some sense of free will as functional in the very least. For example, I can fully choose at a given moment to go to work or not. What follows from what you said isn't tenable as a whole.

Same with "Nothing can be claimed full ownership to". The only response it can really merit is "So?".Only having some sense of "Free Will" is not having "Free" will at all.

Yes you "choose" to go to work. Why did you choose to go to work? Was it some decision made in a vacuum? No. Of course it wasn't. There had to be conditioning at play. The point of this discussion, from my perspective, is not to convince you that my ideas are important to heed. If whether or not your will is impeded doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter. Simply because conditioning is involved, doesn't free an individual of responsibility. I restate that as I don't recall you getting back to me on that and I want to be sure my standpoint on that is clear.

How is what follows what I said not tenable?

[MuD]

I'm not using "some" as opposed to "all". Let me use the word "a" rather than "some", just to be clear. I'm saying that it is quite tenable to hold the notion of "Free Will" ( I suppose it could be reduced to will and I would think of it exactly the same way). It's a functional notion ; this is how we think.

Who am I kidding? I don't really even care. Suprised I even bothered with this.

[Barry Clark]

It's a functional notion ; this is how we think.
I wouldn't say that because you have subscription, that is how "we" think. I am certainly a case against that. Where there is one, there is likely more.

Who am I kidding? I don't really even care. Suprised I even bothered with this.

If whether or not your will is impeded doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter.
That is what I was getting at.

[Tsorovan]

My will is that this squabble would end. It's also free because I'm not charging anything.

[ledtooltheater]

YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER.

little jimmy there for ya


personally i like to take a line from the matrix. "you've already made the choice, yer here to understand why you made it."

i agree with that. i found after much thought before making a choice, my instinct is what i always go for. so, before being presented with the options, i've made the choice. now i need to understand why i made the choice. perhaps thats why we exist. i was given a choice between an apple and a banana. i decided to choose neither, and felt i'd actually made a choice. when given those three options, apple, banana, or neither, i chose neither, that being the illusory or in otherwords, choice of no substance. if you choose neither of the substantial alternatives, you haven't made a choice. option three is not a choice it is a plan of action executed. they are two different things. now the second time, i was given the same options. my first instinct(gut reaction), was to take the apple. after much thought i realized and knew as well as any god knows, i'd already made the choice and was simply trying to understand why. the choice is made before the options are given. i realized i liked apples a lot more than bananas long before being tempted by the two in a choice. so my choice was then apple. years later i was presented with those three options. i already knew that i wanted the apple and was going to get it. and here i put all this thought into understanding why i made that choice. i choose to do what my instinct tells me to.

your instinct is the reminder of the choice you've already made. you're living in multiple dimensions of time in that at one time, you decided you liked apples and would eat them when given the chance, that was in the past, the instinct travels through that time to the present where you are reminded what you chose and have finally been presented with full knowledge of the options. now is your chance to understand why you made the choice. of course, your instinct told you exactly why you made the choice. because with the decision in the instinct comes the history of your preference. backtracking.....i was given two options and could make one choice. before being presented with the options, i found out that i like apples. it is then that i decide i'm going to pick the apple in the future if it is an option. the future came, and my instinct told me what i wanted, why i wanted it, why i'd chosen it and here or shortly thereafter i decided now what i wanted in the future. so when given this choice again, all of this information will be given to me with my instinct and i will try to understand why i made the choice isntead of mistakenly believing that i was makijng a choice now. i wasn't. i already made it. now i have to live with the choice and its consequences which is a whole other topic.

[Sammich]

*sips water*

so.....lemme get this straight....if i were to take a dog and force feed it some viagra.....id eventually have to trot to the nearest liqour store to purchase some kind of time travel device?

youre mad i tells ya!

[fisk]

*sips water*

so.....lemme get this straight....if i were to take a dog and force feed it some viagra.....id eventually have to trot to the nearest liqour store to purchase some kind of time travel device?

youre mad i tells ya!


Ooo, baby - all that complicated language turned me on!

"purchase", OMG! *drool*

[MuD]

YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER.

little jimmy there for ya


personally i like to take a line from the matrix. "you've already made the choice, yer here to understand why you made it."

i agree with that. i found after much thought before making a choice, my instinct is what i always go for. so, before being presented with the options, i've made the choice. now i need to understand why i made the choice. perhaps thats why we exist. i was given a choice between an apple and a banana. i decided to choose neither, and felt i'd actually made a choice. when given those three options, apple, banana, or neither, i chose neither, that being the illusory or in otherwords, choice of no substance. if you choose neither of the substantial alternatives, you haven't made a choice. option three is not a choice it is a plan of action executed. they are two different things. now the second time, i was given the same options. my first instinct(gut reaction), was to take the apple. after much thought i realized and knew as well as any god knows, i'd already made the choice and was simply trying to understand why. the choice is made before the options are given. i realized i liked apples a lot more than bananas long before being tempted by the two in a choice. so my choice was then apple. years later i was presented with those three options. i already knew that i wanted the apple and was going to get it. and here i put all this thought into understanding why i made that choice. i choose to do what my instinct tells me to.

your instinct is the reminder of the choice you've already made. you're living in multiple dimensions of time in that at one time, you decided you liked apples and would eat them when given the chance, that was in the past, the instinct travels through that time to the present where you are reminded what you chose and have finally been presented with full knowledge of the options. now is your chance to understand why you made the choice. of course, your instinct told you exactly why you made the choice. because with the decision in the instinct comes the history of your preference. backtracking.....i was given two options and could make one choice. before being presented with the options, i found out that i like apples. it is then that i decide i'm going to pick the apple in the future if it is an option. the future came, and my instinct told me what i wanted, why i wanted it, why i'd chosen it and here or shortly thereafter i decided now what i wanted in the future. so when given this choice again, all of this information will be given to me with my instinct and i will try to understand why i made the choice isntead of mistakenly believing that i was makijng a choice now. i wasn't. i already made it. now i have to live with the choice and its consequences which is a whole other topic.

My only response to the whole of the pseudo-philosophy that almost totally ruins the first Matrix movie is simply this-- "Good job, asshole ". I love how absurdly convoluted it is, and in the end they haven't really said anything. MAYBE IF I DO MORE DRUGS I'll BELIEVE IT...AND THEN I CAN TIME TRAVEL...WHOA!

Wachowski brothers are fags, IMO. Fuck the Matrix (This statement works on 2 levels).

[fisk]

Stop trying to seem intelligent MuD, it's transparent.

[MuD]

So you're telling me, fisk, that it makes sense to make choices before you make them? Come on now, Fisk. You can do better than that.

And if you can pretend to be intelligent (and you are pretending-- pot calling the kettle black) what's wrong with me calling bullshit on something that obviously is? In other words, Fuck off.

[fisk]

Bwahahaha :)

pWnt.

[MuD]

Guys, I'm outdone here. It totally changes the fact that the Wachowski brothers are total fags.

[fisk]

Yep, now go home and do what you usually do to your chinchilla.

[Sammich]

*sips water*

so.....lemme get this straight....if i were to take a dog and force feed it some viagra.....id eventually have to trot to the nearest liqour store to purchase some kind of time travel device?

youre mad i tells ya!


Ooo, baby - all that complicated language turned me on!

"purchase", OMG! *drool*
yeah ..sorry...ill be sure to use sock puppets next time