3d breath-controller

[j_haake]

Fredrik and I have agreed to not try to patent the new breath-controller. That means it´s no longer a secret how it works. It also means that you guys will have a chance to get hold of a controller that works the way Fredriks does. I will not make controllers like Fredriks for you to buy, since it´s now an old construction (for me) and to boring to build. I am currently looking into a new way to make a control-device that can be connected to something already on the market. I´ve recently also found such a thing that can be configured to work exactly as Fredriks controller, but also in so many other ways it´s impossible to count them. Judging the reaction from Fredrik (it was loud and clear) when I told him about the possibilitys of this new way of controlling the sound, he will also get one as soon as it´s possible.
So the secret of Fredriks controller: It´s a mouthpiece mounted on a joystick, making it a 3 dimensional controller. I would put up some images and describing documents of it but I can´t find a way to attach it. I try to put it on the ftp if it´s up.
Have a gay day! (heterosexuality is not an option)

[Cheesefish]

Cool! :D

If it'sn't too expensive, I'll have one of those. :twisted:

[mr marcus]

me too,

its the best guitar effect ever!

[j_haake]

I have uploaded some stuff to the ftp. It´s under "breath".
I will try to write a document that explanes how the new stuff will work, but here´s the most important stuff.
The mouth-piece and joystick-thing, will be much the same, but it will have a MIDI out, and is supposed to be connected to a "user defined modular analog wannabe sound processor/synth" from a swedish company called Clavia. The processor is called "nord micro modular". This thing is programmed with your computer using modules and virtual cables. You can make it a 3d breath-joystick-controller like Fredriks, or a similar that do totally different things with the sound. You can use it as a vocoder, or numerus other effects (think: user defined midi controlled multi effect) And ofcourse you can use it as intended: a very good "virtual analog" synth. I was thinking -breathcontroller with automatic drum-fills each time you blow the mouth-piece. Wery nice to have synth drums when your doing that legato solo on the gutar :D
www.clavia.se (http://www.clavia.se)

[Pingu333]

!!!! Übercool!
Glad I bought a micro modular 2 yrs ago. :)

[j_haake]

It´ll be cheap for you then :)
Perhaps I chould charge you for the BC-patches then?

[Pingu333]

No way! I'm quitting my job, gonna start pushing my own home-made MicroMod BC patches from under a trenchcoat. I'll be standing next to the BingoLotto-dude on Rådhustorget in Umeå. ;)

[Baal]

That's a cool idea. Although it seems a bit awkward to be a moving a joystick with your mouth. So I didn't quite understand, are you planning on patenting the new version w/MIDI, or are you simply not patenting it at all?

[THE INCISION]

Yeah if you could post more direct info on how the breath controller actually works, I mean does fredrik actually stick the joystick i his mouth & rip it out like a volume effect?

[j_haake]

Yep. Fredrik has moved around the joystick for a couple of years now, and around a year when playing live. The mouthpiece (where you blow like a normal BC) is mounted on a joystickarm. You can use it only as a breathcontroller if you like, but if you move it around a little, cool stuff will happen. Look at the description and picture on the ftp under "breath".

[j_haake]

I forgot. There will be no patenting, or this info wouldn´t be here.

[j_haake]

I have now uploaded an mp3 with Fredrik playing the 3d controller. It doesn´t display all the stuff it´s capable of, (and certanly not what you could do with a micro modular), but it´s cool and also a couple of minutes of Fredrik soloing that you probably haven´t heard. You find it on the ftp under "breath" with the rest.

[Cheesefish]

I can't find it... :cry:

[j_haake]

goto fisks ftp-server /incoming/breath. There you find it all

[Cheesefish]

I was at incoming/breath but it wasn't there....

But now it's there and I'm downloading it right now. :D :D

[Cheesefish]

Man, he can play the guitar!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Was that with the 3d breathcontroller or with the other breath controller?

[j_haake]

For the last 2 years the old controllers (with yamaha mouth-piece) has been totally out of use, so yes. The only thing I´ve been talking about is the 3d controller. It is the very same one that you can see on the picture, which is also the same one that has been heard live the last year or so, and on "Nothing". It is also the only one that exists. The new controller that will be avalible for anyone, will have a similar "breath-joystick-thing´" but not the 19" rack analog processor. It will instead be a "Clavia nord micro modular" digital processor, which will be able to do all the same stuff, and much more.

You all know what I´m talking about now?

[THE INCISION]

Now where exactly can I find this sample ftp??? huh?
:shock: :shock:

[Cheesefish]

This is the url to the ftp:
ftp://fisk.lir.dk/pub/meshuggah/

then go this way: incoming/breath/33-demo.mp3

[Baal]

Rawk, that makes some cool sounds. Wonder why he didn't exploit it on Nothing?

The new controller that will be avalible for anyone, will have a similar "breath-joystick-thing´" but not the 19" rack analog processor. It will instead be a "Clavia nord micro modular" digital processor, which will be able to do all the same stuff, and much more.

I assume one would also be able to use the controller w/ any MIDI device?

[j_haake]

Yeah, but I haven´t found any other that you can control all the parameters needed to make a good BC. It´s 2 problems. 1. it´s hard to find mixing functions, and without that you can´t "morph" between dry and effect sound. 2. There are just a few that has a really good volume that can be controlled by MIDI. It absolutely HAS to be with analog direct and fast feel to it, or it will be a very poor breathcontroller. The thing with controlling with breath instead of with your foot, is that you become much faster and accurate. I´ve tried to control the POD, and that was....sad.

[DracWell]

Hm. Will you give out the schemtics for the "old" rackunit that's pictured on the 33.jpg? The micromodular wouldn't fit in my nice rack, and I'm gay so I want everything in my rack ;P

The mp3-rules btw. =)

[r.u.sirius]

are you sure this addy is correct?
ftp://fisk.lir.dk/pub/meshuggah/
I cannot connect :(
and I´m VERY interested!

r.u.sirius

[j_haake]

The ftp is sometimes down. Try again later....
Schematic for the old 33? Well, I have it all on paper exept the actual controller, but that I will have to do almost the same for the new ones. The files for the old schematic is lost, so I´d have to scan it. I´ll do that, but I can tell you that it is maybe 2 hours job to rebuild the micro to a rack, and around 100 hours job to build the old 33. It will not be any price difference to speak about either, and the result will depend LOTS on who builds it. I don´t have the PCB-layout on file for the old 33, so you would have to draw that from the schematic, and if you´re no expert on that it probably will be a poor result. The schematic is 12 pages I think, so...
Maybe I can find the layout-original, but it´s difficult to scan them with good enough accuracy. Buy the micro and a rack-box if you´re smart. I will, and I´m pretty smart :)

[DracWell]

Haha, okay =)

Hm, rebuild the micro? Take everything out and put in a new "casing"?
That shouldn't be so hard when I think about it =)

Will you write more directions on how to build the controller?
Maby you even could tell the parts you get from Elfa (if that's where you get your stuff). That would be the easiest =)

I hade another thought. Is it hard to make the controller have both the outputs you demonstrate in the *.doc ?Could be useful to have both or I'm just trying to a little overkill as always ;D

It all seems really great if you don't think about the fact that a new micromod. costs 6500:-. =/

Oh well, det kostar att ligga på topp. ;P

Cheers!

[j_haake]

The micromodular is a little expensive, but if I would build a 33 by hand it wouldn´t be cheap either. Only the parts sum up to about 5500 skr....
Also the micro has been around a couple of years, so it´s not impossible to find a used one.
I will build controllers to the ones who wants it, ready to connect to the micro. Load a patch (I´ll also do a couple of those) and you´re ready to go :) Ofcourse I will tell you all how I do it all. Everything will be in the open. If you want analog outputs from the controller, it´ll be very easy to fix, they will be lurking inside the little box, just waiting to come out :)

[DracWell]

Hehe. Do I have to say I want one? NOW ;P

Hm. How is the user-interface for the midipart? Is it easy to program the channel and ccs?

[j_haake]

It will be simple. When you see my patches, you will see how I´ve done it, and you can just change the things you come up with yourself.

[DracWell]

Uhm, are we both talking about the controller? I'm not talking about the micromod.

[j_haake]

Sorry, I was talking about the micro. The controller will have fixed MIDI-assignments, since it´s cheaper (no user interface at all) and the micro is totally free for the user to define which #cc goes to what parameter. However, if you have special needs it takes me about 5 sek to change those fixed assignments for you upon order :)
One problem only: The MIDI-#cc for "breath" will not be a #cc at all, but instead a "note on" because the micro responds faster on this, and the responce-time for "breath" is really important (4mS instead of 40mS to go from 0-127)

[DracWell]

Okay. =)
Hehe, I have to look deeper into my G-major and see if it can take that note on-command. Otherwise I must save alot more money and get a microoven ;P

[Wangoed]

It is also the only one that exists.
:o

shouldn't he have a backup, in case he breaks it on tour or something?

[r.u.sirius]

ok, I finally managed to download the files from the ftp.

:o WOW :o

I definitely want to have this controller! It´s truely amazing what Frederik does with this thing.

I already own a micro modular....I was thinking about selleing it some weeks ago - glad I didn´t :D

So, when will the controller be available, what will it cost?

plz get in touch!

best regards

oli

p.s.: I´m from Germany, so a price in Euro would be nice :wink:

[Baal]

j_haake wrote: One problem only: The MIDI-#cc for "breath" will not be a #cc at all, but instead a "note on"

so then the breath part is only on/off? No gradual control of volume?

[j_haake]

on/off for volume? You have little faith in me boys :)
No the volume will be smoooooothly controlled by WHICH note that are sent. Note on also has 127 values. actualy if you connect it to a normal synth you would play with your breath :) blow hard = high freq, blow loose= bass. I will probably have a mode where everything is #cc, so you can try controlling a g-major or such, but I don´t think it will be nearly as cool. They aren´t constructed with this controller in mind. Damn those engineers!
It will probably cost around 200eur (200usd, 2000skr) and I hope to have it ready within the next 6 month for delivery.

[j_haake]

Wangoed: He has the old controller (with yamaha mouthpiece) but he didn´t have it on the us tours. Why? because he knows what I build doesn´t break! :D It´s built lika a tank.

[DracWell]

Johan... I forgot to mention one thing in the PM. I talked with TC Elec. about adding an effect that works just like a volumepedal that is placed after the noisegate but before other effects (don't wanna turn down the delay too). It shouldn't be enterily impossible do make them upgrade the G-major's software to fit the breathcontroller a bit more ;P

Cheers!

[j_haake]

cooolness dude

[MuD]

Where can get my hands on one of these Joysticks?

[Baal]

on/off for volume? You have little faith in me boys :)
No the volume will be smoooooothly controlled by WHICH note that are sent. Note on also has 127 values.

ah, ok. phew, you had me scared there for a minute :)

[j_haake]

MuD: It will still take a while, but my guess is in 6 month you can get one from me.

[MuD]

MuD: It will still take a while, but my guess is in 6 month you can get one from me.

Could you give me a quote as to the cost of one?

[timdog]

One - Million - Dollars.
Muhahahahah....

[trephine]

One - Million - Dollars.
Muhahahahah....

Corrected, one billion dollars :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[j_haake]

The cost: I think I wrote it somewhere....the Clavia micro modular costs around 600usd (buy a used one and save a couple hundreds) The controller will probably come to around 200usd, but that depends a littleon a numerous things.

[Baal]

hmm, i hope this doesn't mean they're thinking about discontinuing the modular line:

http://www.clavia.se/News/modularupgradeinfo.htm

[j_haake]

I will call them. I need info from them in some other matter as well.

[Linnes]

I found some schematics of the old breathcontroller...using the BC-3 thing from yamaha. I was just wondering if you could tell where about the price on one of those would land? I'm not asking you to build one, just wondering about the hardwareprice of components...

[Meshuggenator]

I think the breath controller is an amazing piece of equipment, but I want to be original and hope my idea works out well. I am constructing something that will perform the same basic function as the breath controller but all from a floorboard controller. The volume will be pre-defined by a knob, and the bypass will merely be a footswitch, and the mix and frequency will be controlled with two expression-type pedals. All of this will be in one unit, and I hope to be done some time before I begin to push up daisies (or pansies for that matter). All of this because of my unwillingness to blow something ;-] ...

[Baal]

Well for that you could just get the micro-modular (or similiar device) and use a midi pedalborad to control it. The whole point of using the breath controller is that you get very subtle control of volume...much more than you would get from a volume pedal. More intuitive, musical, or whatever you want to call it..

[Meshuggenator]

I'm only interested in the DMC Ground Control Pro, and I am not sure how multiple parameters could be controlled real-time without their own expression pedals. I know the Behringer FCB1010 has two expression pedals, but I have not yet tried it and do not know if it has the range of something like a Morley or Ernie Ball pedal, for all I know it could only have a 30 degree range.

[Meshuggenator]

Here's something as well...

http://www.artproaudio.com/products_detail.asp?PRODUCTID=61

The reviews didn't seem to be much better, but it looks more sturdy and may have more range.

[Baal]

I used to own the Behringer, and the pedals seemed good enough range for me. I've heard the x-15 isn't very versatile programming-wise. For the price, the behringer is the best thing out there, especially if you want controller pedals.

[Meshuggenator]

I own a v-amp2 and would probably buy the FCB1010 anyways. It seems like I won't need a large clunky MIDI controller after all. I'm trying to get as much in one unit as possible, because I'd still be using 2 separate volume pedals for controlling the wet signal through the VCAs on the mixer. It also looks like I can control the mixer with the Behringer too, and the thing seems very affordable.

[hybreed]

Hmm so controlling a PODxt with the BC isn't something you would recomend?

[brainiac]

Hybreed>

I have been able to get my computer to control my XT by playing back midi data but I have not been able to have it control more than one thing at a time yet. I don't know how I can assign it to control more than one channel at a time.

However I was able to record the midi data of twisting the knobs at the same time and then playing that back which plays back all the knob tweaks. That leads me to believe that it could be done, but how to assign the parameters you want, that will take someone that actually knows what they are doing.

I think the XT is capable of more in this regard than the 2.0 but I don't know for sure what it's really capable of. Luckily quite a bit can be added in updates to the XT so if we were to let line6 know we want this capability perhaps it would not be too tough to implement. Or if there was some technically savvy enough to do it somehow.

I don't play live so I intend to blow into my BC33 while sitting at home in front of my computer. Content to make music by myself. With my hands and mouth busy, like a weird perversion of some sort of flatbacker.

[hybreed]

As far as I know the XT is fully midicontrollable. The thing I was wondering was if the XT responds fast enough to make volumechanges smooth and nice while blowing in the BC.

[brainiac]

I tried asking in the pod forum on line6.com and got ... blown off.

So I am tired of trying to get information from anyone. They are no doubt busy trying to get the latest update out by february as they said they would so I can wait longer to see what they do.

If I learn any specifics in regards to responsiveness I will let you know.

[j_haake]

The POD 2 isn't fast enough for a breath-controller, but I haven't tried the xt. The POD don't have any controllable mixing function either, so it's hard to make it work really good....

[hybreed]

OK, I guess I'll just have to bite the sour apple and get a Micro-Modular.

[brainiac]

Hmmm, I was about to bid on a micro modular on ebay but someone bought it out at 450 US dollars apparently. The question I have is whether we are going to be getting old technology if we get the micro modular now.

As was posted earlier in this thread, the modular line is not going to be getting a software update and clavia will be putting out some new "stuff" in 2003. Well, I am sure the 33^3 will be able to control devices other than the micro modular so there is no need to jump the gun and get the micro right now. But if the price was right, does it seem like a bad idea to get something that is no longer being supported?

On the face of it, it seems like bad policy. However, I have never dealt with clavia products except noodling with my friends Nord Lead. So, is it likely that the new products coming up in 2003 will be filling the gap of the modular system or what? How long will clavia care about the modular system as far as fixing them/replacing them. If I were to buy one used on ebay I would assume that the warranty will have either expired or won't be honered. 450 down the drain is not something I can swallow. 550 for a new one is not a very pleasant pill either.

These are questions none of us can answer until clavia spills it's beans, I guess.